Why?

[Appleman]

Growing up in St Lawrence county we would spend the winter hitting Ruffed Grouse covers.  Overgrown farm fields tangled grapevines and brambles with a split rail fence mixed in.  Farmers were so poor they would split the cedar posts left over from steaming the oil out of the leaves of the trees(Cedars) to make cow fences (they would sell the oil to dealers for big $ and clear fields at the same time).  Low areas would often have these fences to keep cows from beaver swamp flows or sugar bush groves or wherever they didn't want the cows to go.  Now that the sub 500 cow farms are a thing of the past and corn planters are 8 + row rigs (in my younger days a 4 row rig was the norm) the only small farms left up N seem to be owned by the Amish(if you think that's racist for me to say eat dirt and live a while--its reality). Back on topic as I digress, we often would see "partridge" driving the backroads and when we had a windy day we would call it quits because we knew that the flushes would be right at the very limit of the range of our 7 1/2 express loads.  After hunting a cover and learning it we knew what way to enter it(this cover they flush downhill and fly in that direction so hunter #2 caps that area off) to what weather to hit it (heavy snow hit the cedars above the beaver swamp).  Fall opener would be one or 2 bird flushes while winter would flock the birds and I have experienced 4-6 bird flocks and one time had 8 birds come off my best split rail wild raisin(grape) cover.  If you walked that cover from one direction the birds would fly away and you would get a straight away if you walked the other they would fly out and into the field and swing around and give you open crossing because they were heading to the escape cover that was only on the one side.  It was the perfect cover overgrown hedgerow that 2 people wanting partridge for dinner rarely went hungry.  Hunting it as a single often ended up hearing the birds and only catching a flash of feather as the birds headed to escape cover on the other side of the row.  The point I want to make is WHY don't we have a huntable population of birds here in the Catskills and Hudson Valley?  When I do see birds (rare) they seem to flush way out of range and a second flush is out of the question not happening.  Is it the lack of habitat?  Too many birds of prey?  Too many fox-fisher-yotes?  Do I have to drive 5 hours to Potsdam to hit my old covers?  I spent some time in Cobleskill and had some grouse action on state land in the 1980's, maybe take a 2 hr ride.  The best days had a brace of birds with a cotton tail or snowshoe or 2 mixed in most of the time with no dog.

Here's a question--When does a Ruffed Grouse become a Partridge?

[GrizG]

It's primarily a habitat problem... Between development and the maturation of the forests the habitat availability and diversity has decreased. The lack of early successional forest with high stem count woody plants due to maturation is a key issue... DEC announced to the public, at the Ruffed Grouse Society banquet in Kingston, that they were implementing a young forests initiative in the WMAs. The goal is to have 10% of the WMA land in the young successional stage.  See https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/104218.html for more on the program.

If you're old enough you may recall that iron sighted 30-30 lever guns were common in the tight cover where we hunted deer. Now... it's often a flatter shooting scoped bolt action rifle as the ranges are longer. I shot a lot of deer at 10-30 yards years ago. Now... 100+ yard shots are not uncommon. Clearly not all areas are like this but it has been my experience... We used to be able to see the tower at Mohonk from my parents' house on the south side of Kingston. Now tall trees block the view. Back in the '60s grouse and wild pheasants were common around their house... twice pheasants flew into and through windows at our house. There were farm fields, thick brush, and relatively small trees around us. Now... there are McMansions, mature trees, and park-like bare ground in the woods. The deer were like NYC rats in the residential neighborhoods (until EHD hit last year).

I see a ray of hope in the wide spread tree kill (ash, hemlock, pine, eastern red cedar) that has opened up the woods combined with the deer kill. This as there are more saplings, high stem count brushes, and grasses growing in the woods. The yews at my parents' house actually have green on them below 6 feet for the first time in a couple decades. The grouse, woodcock, song birds, and other animals may see better habitat for a while and prosper... let's hope there are enough grouse left for this repopulation!

Note that private land owners can participate in the young forest effort through management of their forest land. Contact RGS or Audubon Society for information and assistance with habitat management.

[Yotehntr]

Because our forests are a barren wasteland of food and cover, since the geniuses in New York falsely believe logging is detrimental to the ecology of the land..

With the herd decimated in areas, now would be a great time to establish some secondary growth on private. Something might have half a chance in making it.

[Appleman]

So that's 2 for lack of habitat that make total sense to me.  Grouse and other small game covers were best on the edges.  Split rail fences are impossible to mow with a tractor and beaver flows are cleared out by feeding on trees and wet feet of non water loving trees.  We never went into the sugarbushes because the mature maples had a very small amount of understory growth--nothing grows well in the shade!  NY has a forestry school(ESF in Syracuse)and has foresters on the payroll in most regions.  What is their take on the no harvest of trees laws that the state has on the books.  Has anyone done a study of how many board feet of a renewable resources we are letting rot on the stump?  How many jobs would be made if we used some of the knowledge and harvested some of the states resources? We might have some money to fix some roads or build some schools from the process.  No takers on my ending question yet.  How many ringneck have you seen end in a pile of feathers after they were released(I don't recall ever finding a pile of grouse feathers)

[GrizG]

So that's 2 for lack of habitat that make total sense to me.  Grouse and other small game covers were best on the edges.  Split rail fences are impossible to mow with a tractor and beaver flows are cleared out by feeding on trees and wet feet of non water loving trees.  We never went into the sugarbushes because the mature maples had a very small amount of understory growth--nothing grows well in the shade!  NY has a forestry school(ESF in Syracuse)and has foresters on the payroll in most regions.  What is their take on the no harvest of trees laws that the state has on the books.  Has anyone done a study of how many board feet of a renewable resources we are letting rot on the stump?  How many jobs would be made if we used some of the knowledge and harvested some of the states resources? We might have some money to fix some roads or build some schools from the process.  No takers on my ending question yet.  How many ringneck have you seen end in a pile of feathers after they were released(I don't recall ever finding a pile of grouse feathers)

The NYS constitution has forever wild provisions... not the state laws per se. The original article in the constitution reads:

“The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed.”

It has been amended to deal with specific locations...

https://www.protectadks.org/article-14-section-1-of-the-nys-constitution-the-forever-wild-provision-has-been-amended-16-times-since-1938/

I've had discussions with various state senators, assemblymen, environmentalists, and conservationists about this article to try to get a pulse on things. There is a concern, likely a valid concern, that if the forever wild article was repealed that all the natural resources could be monetized and sold off to the highest bidder over time. That said, perhaps there are backdoor legislative ways to deal with the problem, e.g., a ban on fighting wildland fires on state lands that are the result of natural causes, lightening for example. 

Regarding calling "ruffed grouse" "partridge..." that is a local tradition thing--they are different birds. For example, New Englanders and in some parts of NY they typically call them partridge. When I was a kid a new kid moved into the neighborhood and he called them partridge which confused me as I knew them as ruffed grouse!

[Appleman]

What year was the constitution of NY written GrizG?  Thanks for a great post teaching me information on the topic.  Was it in a time that clear cutting for paper and leather production was being done and was the norm?  Was it written by a person that had a forestry background or by a politician?  It just sounds very extreme because the timber is being destroyed by falling over and rotting.  How is that a benefit to our ecosystem or our state?  1777 was our 1st NY constitution written in Kingston.  What year did the no timber deal get added---1893 the forever wild part of the constitution hit the books.  Deforestation was a major concern in that day.  I would like to think that a lot has changed in knowledge on the topic and that we could amend the knee jerk reaction that the state thought was such a great idea at the time it was written.  Forever is a long time not to think. You can see where it has gotten us--yotehntr sums it up in a nutshell.

[GrizG]

What year was the constitution of NY written GrizG?  Thanks for a great post teaching me information on the topic.  Was it in a time that clear cutting for paper and leather production was being done and was the norm?  Was it written by a person that had a forestry background or by a politician?  It just sounds very extreme because the timber is being destroyed by falling over and rotting.  How is that a benefit to our ecosystem or our state?  1777 was our 1st NY constitution written in Kingston.  What year did the no timber deal get added---1893 the forever wild part of the constitution hit the books.  Deforestation was a major concern in that day.  I would like to think that a lot has changed in knowledge on the topic and that we could amend the knee jerk reaction that the state thought was such a great idea at the time it was written.  Forever is a long time not to think. You can see where it has gotten us--yotehntr sums it up in a nutshell.

The constitutional convention 1894 had a variety of people as delegates. In some form or fashion all of the delegates were politicians, not necessarily elected officials.  However, I don't know who the advisors and experts were who informed the delegates.

I don't disagree that the forever wild article is problematic. I am concerned, however, that if a constitutional convention is convened that the overwhelming number of left leaning and progressive "representatives" we currently have in NY would completely screw us on a number of issues... I could can see constitutional proposals for hunting bans, trapping bans, limits on gun ownership and types (that go right up to the edge and probably beyond what they think SCOTUS would allow), not requiring citizenship to vote (NYC's effort to allow non-citizens to vote goes against the state constitution), expanded infringements on private property rights, and myriad other changes that would likely make us cry... Even fishing, livestock farming, non-renewable and carbon producing fuels, could be on the block!  Frankly though, I have a hard time fathoming the controlling Democrats being able to organize themselves enough, and for long enough, to call a constitutional convention and get it by the voters... look up how the constitution can be amended and I think you'll see why I think this.

Redefining the forever wild forest management policies may be a viable approach but there would be opportunity costs for that.  For example, letting wildland fires started by lightening burn themselves out sounds good to me. However, those fires may leave the bounds of the forever wild forest and take out houses, businesses and utilities. Convincing fire departments to stand down until a fire crosses a political boundary (as the forest preserve is) is a huge hurdle all by itself! 

What other policies might we influence within the confines of the forever wild article?

[Ziffystriperchum]

      I don't want to grouse about this thread but it's just limpkin along now. I wood duck out before it gets ruff.   

[Appleman]

  your funny Ziff.  Get off your boat and take a walk in our Forever Wild woods and see what a mature forest doesn't do for the big and small game.  Next to 0 food if the beach and oak don't have nuts and the wild cherry freeze out in the spring.  When the deer start eating Mt. Laurel it's a sad sight to see.  We have had almost 130 years of this Forever Wild deal and now we can see what some of the problems are from this policy.  A well managed forest has more benefits to the ecosystem in my opinion for the good of the state.

A Ruffed Grouse is a bird that your dog points, is flushed and shot in the air.  A partridge is a game bird that gets shot for dinner when you see it and the second flush gets shot in the air.  

[DXT]

We killed partridge with rocks in Newfoundland while caribou hunting, they don’t move, you literally can kill them throwing a rock lol.
As far as ruffed grouse, there’s still some in the mountain laurel, you can’t kill ‘em, you hear them flush but never see them. Definitely not the numbers from 20+ years ago.

[grazan]

heres a plug for the NWTF from this months TURKEY CALL which shows a project in the HUDSON VAllEY on private land improving habitat for Turkey and small game ..... it only costs $35 to join and they send u a $25 bass pro gift card

[Ziffystriperchum]

your funny Ziff.  Get off your boat and take a walk in our Forever Wild woods and see what a mature forest doesn't do for the big and small game.  Next to 0 food if the beach and oak don't have nuts and the wild cherry freeze out in the spring.  When the deer start eating Mt. Laurel it's a sad sight to see.  We have had almost 130 years of this Forever Wild deal and now we can see what some of the problems are from this policy.  A well managed forest has more benefits to the ecosystem in my opinion for the good of the state.

A Ruffed Grouse is a bird that your dog points, is flushed and shot in the air.  A partridge is a game bird that gets shot for dinner when you see it and the second flush gets shot in the air.

[/color]

I hear you Wighty! . . . . . goin' to heII in a handbasket!

[Appleman]

As far as ruffed grouse, there’s still some in the mountain laurel, you can’t kill ‘em, you hear them flush but never see them. Definitely not the numbers from 20+ years ago.

This is the case here in the Catskills as I find it also.  I hear them(with the help of my hearing aids nowadays) drum in the spring and I flush them when I'm still hunting for deer a few times a year but never a close flush.  It seems to always be a very long flush. Why are they so skittish down here in Ulster DXT but up North many times hold tight for a close flush or even after you walk past them.  Maybe mountain laurel (the predominant understory in our mature forest) does not provide them with enough cover to hold tight.

[Appleman]

heres a plug for the NWTF from this months TURKEY CALL which shows a project in the HUDSON VAllEY on private land improving habitat for Turkey and small game ..... it only costs $35 to join and they send u a $25 bass pro gift card

Your plug worked Grazan-- thank you for the suggestion,  I'll check it out.  By the look of it private land is the the only hope for the situation. 

[walkabout]

Same thing in the gunks u hear them drumming but they flush 75yards out..  Use to shoot them every weekend as a teenager behind the rosendale elementary school.